Moving control points in switch layers in the camera view
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
I think the problem with my understanding this is that the capability already exists as far as I can tell. You CAN reach down into groups of layers... just not from the "top" layer. You have to edit each layer by hand. I guess the feature you want is access to all layers from any layer.
With a switch layer you have to understand the concept of "switching". Switching only shows one layer at a time. With switch interpolation turned on the active layer is transforming into the next layer. If you edit the points of the active layer between that transformation it effects the points during that transformation just as you describe. You can edit those points and achieve that "extra" tweaking you want.
You can even save actions that edit all layers in a switch layer. That is closer to your idea of "tweaking" switch layers. So you create an action and edit each switch layer or just one or whatever. Still you need to edit each layer individually.
Or you can use that technique I posted about creating new switch layers from inbetweens of interpolated switch layers.
Ultimately I think the main issue here is being able to edit the points of any layer at the same time from one "location". If all the points were on one layer you would be able to edit all the points anyplace in the time line. As it is now you do have to switch from one layer to the next to do global point editing.
Beyond globally editing points on any layer I just don't understand the need to "grab points" from a bunch of layers and "pasting" into another layer. That would be incredibly complicated. You would have to deal with shapes as well.
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I suppose the mesh instance script might be modified in some way so that multiple vector layers could be edited from one "master" vector layer. Points could be identified somehow using named point "groups". However named groups are really hard to use in scripting. There isn't a lot of script access to them.
Imagine this was worked out somehow. You would edit a "master layer" that would transfer point motion to multiple matching layers. This of course would only be needed if editing multiple layers was too difficult. It doesn't add a new feature it only improves the process that already exists.
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GCharb,
the best way to describe what you want to happen is to "illustrate" it somehow. Animate the process with "fake" windows in AS or whatever. Use fake, modified screen grabs of the interface. A feature can't be created if the person who needs to do it doesn't understand it 100%. That could be me... or Mike the programmer. It has to be 100% clear. Programming isn't like painting or drawing. You need a clear idea of what needs to happen before you start.
Right now I am still clueless. I'm not exaggerating... I literally don't have the first clue what your idea is and how it would work that is so vastly different from what already exists. I admit switch layers are lacking in many ways but beyond that I just don't see your idea.
... I really want to understand. I do. If I understand maybe there is another way to approach the idea, or another way to do it. Usually I think of myself as pretty smart... on this one I'm stumped.
-vern
With a switch layer you have to understand the concept of "switching". Switching only shows one layer at a time. With switch interpolation turned on the active layer is transforming into the next layer. If you edit the points of the active layer between that transformation it effects the points during that transformation just as you describe. You can edit those points and achieve that "extra" tweaking you want.
You can even save actions that edit all layers in a switch layer. That is closer to your idea of "tweaking" switch layers. So you create an action and edit each switch layer or just one or whatever. Still you need to edit each layer individually.
Or you can use that technique I posted about creating new switch layers from inbetweens of interpolated switch layers.
Ultimately I think the main issue here is being able to edit the points of any layer at the same time from one "location". If all the points were on one layer you would be able to edit all the points anyplace in the time line. As it is now you do have to switch from one layer to the next to do global point editing.
Beyond globally editing points on any layer I just don't understand the need to "grab points" from a bunch of layers and "pasting" into another layer. That would be incredibly complicated. You would have to deal with shapes as well.
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I suppose the mesh instance script might be modified in some way so that multiple vector layers could be edited from one "master" vector layer. Points could be identified somehow using named point "groups". However named groups are really hard to use in scripting. There isn't a lot of script access to them.
Imagine this was worked out somehow. You would edit a "master layer" that would transfer point motion to multiple matching layers. This of course would only be needed if editing multiple layers was too difficult. It doesn't add a new feature it only improves the process that already exists.
---------
GCharb,
the best way to describe what you want to happen is to "illustrate" it somehow. Animate the process with "fake" windows in AS or whatever. Use fake, modified screen grabs of the interface. A feature can't be created if the person who needs to do it doesn't understand it 100%. That could be me... or Mike the programmer. It has to be 100% clear. Programming isn't like painting or drawing. You need a clear idea of what needs to happen before you start.
Right now I am still clueless. I'm not exaggerating... I literally don't have the first clue what your idea is and how it would work that is so vastly different from what already exists. I admit switch layers are lacking in many ways but beyond that I just don't see your idea.
... I really want to understand. I do. If I understand maybe there is another way to approach the idea, or another way to do it. Usually I think of myself as pretty smart... on this one I'm stumped.
-vern
Sorry...that was my idea of a possible workaround. I really think GCharb refferring to global point manipulation. Something like this would be brilliantly time saving indeed.Beyond globally editing points on any layer I just don't understand the need to "grab points" from a bunch of layers and "pasting" into another layer. That would be incredibly complicated. You would have to deal with shapes as well.
D.K
- synthsin75
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Okay, I'm guessing this means I really need to finish up my new select layer tool. GCharb, let me know if this would be a close enough solution. My new tool will let you select layers based on clicking visual elements in the workspace. If you can see it, you can click it, and it will automatically select that layer.
Hopefully I'll have this ready soon.
Overall though, it sounds like you're wanting dissimilar switch sub-layers to behave as duplicate interpolating layers. Between two 'poses' that have differing point quantity and layout, there is absolutely no tweening information to work with.
I really think you should look beyond switch layers for what you're looking to do. Proper construction and layer ordering can accomplish any degree of smooth, detailed animation required. You just have to learn to think beyond the 'drawing'.
There is no spoon.
Hopefully I'll have this ready soon.
Overall though, it sounds like you're wanting dissimilar switch sub-layers to behave as duplicate interpolating layers. Between two 'poses' that have differing point quantity and layout, there is absolutely no tweening information to work with.
I really think you should look beyond switch layers for what you're looking to do. Proper construction and layer ordering can accomplish any degree of smooth, detailed animation required. You just have to learn to think beyond the 'drawing'.
There is no spoon.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but if you want interpolation then just ditch switches for actions.
Actions, GCharb can be single frame deformations, done on frame one.
Do an action for each phoneme and just drop each one into the timeline as you need, double up for a hold before dropping the next down for a morphing interpolation. Have a look into it GCharb, switch layers are not the only solution and there is no rule that compels you to use them for anything.
If the phoneme is more deformed than a pure interpolation will allow then morph halfway to where you want and then, switch layers, using switch / action morph, switch/ morph,( meanwhile return the action of the switched morph that is now unseen back to its original pose.If switches don't support it , then use visibility.
I have done this before, but I forget exactly what method I used, it really wasn't a great struggle as I remember.
I don't have time to supply any examples right now, I suggest giving it a shot and report back.
If you want to think outside the box, then get outside the dang box

Actions, GCharb can be single frame deformations, done on frame one.
Do an action for each phoneme and just drop each one into the timeline as you need, double up for a hold before dropping the next down for a morphing interpolation. Have a look into it GCharb, switch layers are not the only solution and there is no rule that compels you to use them for anything.
If the phoneme is more deformed than a pure interpolation will allow then morph halfway to where you want and then, switch layers, using switch / action morph, switch/ morph,( meanwhile return the action of the switched morph that is now unseen back to its original pose.If switches don't support it , then use visibility.
I have done this before, but I forget exactly what method I used, it really wasn't a great struggle as I remember.
I don't have time to supply any examples right now, I suggest giving it a shot and report back.

If you want to think outside the box, then get outside the dang box


Pretty much what I had in mind, in a non-destructive manner of course.DK wrote:I think GCharb wants to be able to assemble a character with multiple switch layers, animated the character...then be able to perform point motion tweeking on the entire character directly over all it's sub layers as if it were one layer.
Could be a solution, havnt had a look at Lua yet, but I will, still, being able to do it directlly on top of existing animated layers would make the process tons easier and help the workflow, instead of being stuck with many copied/modified layers.DK wrote:My thoughts went to a script that could copy paste all the points on one frame from all layers and paste them to one vector layer for tweeking....
GC
Okay I think I get it now. I missed the idea because it was so "large". I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I think this would have to be one of those "holy grail" type features. I think it would probably have to be done in the application. Scripting this would be massive.
Some real sticky issues:
1. Bone layers and multiple sub layers -
Suppose you have a parent layer with sub layers. The sub layers are bone layers with sub layers... yikes! So, you would want to grab the layers in the bone layers and edit the points... BUT... you would also have to get the bone deformations from the bone layer as well and "add" point motion to it before "transferring" all the motion to ANOTHER vector layer that has bunches of OTHER vector layer information that might be inside OTHER bone layers and.. uh...
2. Uh... 2? Number 1 isn't enough? You need more?
Phew... I'm getting sleepy just thinking about it. I feel just like Cheney during Bush's farewell address. I'm not even going to list any other issues.
Some of the scripting needed to handle this are things I've been trying to do anyway for ages and haven't figured it out yet. Transferring and adding to bone motion on a different layer. The script Mesh Instance does this but it works with one layer at a time... try adding "unlimited" multiple layer control from one layer to Mesh Instance, then also add in the influence of a bone layer from another parent layer and throw in some point motion on top of all that... <shiver>
I agree that thinking outside the box is important... but this would "think" ME right inside a box... uh... a padded "box" with a wrap around sports coat.
. My skills in lua aren't good enough. This would take someone with real programming chops... and at the end of the day it might be so slow as to not be usable.
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I think you need to make this "smaller" or at least do a case study for how it might work. Step by step "tutorial" for using this "feature" to illustrate how it would work.
-vern
Some real sticky issues:
1. Bone layers and multiple sub layers -
Suppose you have a parent layer with sub layers. The sub layers are bone layers with sub layers... yikes! So, you would want to grab the layers in the bone layers and edit the points... BUT... you would also have to get the bone deformations from the bone layer as well and "add" point motion to it before "transferring" all the motion to ANOTHER vector layer that has bunches of OTHER vector layer information that might be inside OTHER bone layers and.. uh...
2. Uh... 2? Number 1 isn't enough? You need more?

Phew... I'm getting sleepy just thinking about it. I feel just like Cheney during Bush's farewell address. I'm not even going to list any other issues.

Some of the scripting needed to handle this are things I've been trying to do anyway for ages and haven't figured it out yet. Transferring and adding to bone motion on a different layer. The script Mesh Instance does this but it works with one layer at a time... try adding "unlimited" multiple layer control from one layer to Mesh Instance, then also add in the influence of a bone layer from another parent layer and throw in some point motion on top of all that... <shiver>
I agree that thinking outside the box is important... but this would "think" ME right inside a box... uh... a padded "box" with a wrap around sports coat.

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I think you need to make this "smaller" or at least do a case study for how it might work. Step by step "tutorial" for using this "feature" to illustrate how it would work.
-vern
LOLHeyvern wrote:I agree that thinking outside the box is important... but this would "think" ME right inside a box... uh... a padded "box" with a wrap around sports coat.
I do not think it is as bad as that, more like an abstraction type of coding!
Great idea, will have a look into that using AS Pro to demonstrate the best I can what I have in mind!Heyvern wrote:I think you need to make this "smaller" or at least do a case study for how it might work. Step by step "tutorial" for using this "feature" to illustrate how it would work.
As for Lua, I havnt got to have a good look at it but I will, been programming for some 23 years, will have a shot at it, eventually.
GC
Don't get me wrong. It isn't the programming that would be difficult specifically (yes it would be for me because I lack the chops) it's also the limitations in AS and script access to the program. There are many things that just can't be done at all or are extremely difficult due to certain parts of AS unavailable to the script interface.GCharb wrote: As for Lua, I havnt got to have a good look at it but I will, been programming for some 23 years, will have a shot at it, eventually.
Moving points with a script will NOT let you move the points by hand. If you programaticaly set a points location with lua it will resist any other movement... unless you figure out a way to "add" that motion in on the fly (I haven't been able to do this yet myself). This would require duplicating the point matrix of the layer, calculating mouse down movement, selection and movement of every point, adding it all up and THEN moving the points. Then you would have to figure out how to "key" or not "key" each point transformation. Bone movement should not be keyed (except by a bone), but point motion must be keyed but added to the point motion.
I think that other "pose" script handles something similar to this. I don't know if it handles point motion on top. You may want to look at that topic. there were some performance issues.
Another issue, layer movement or rotation. You rotate a layer and the whole thing will go wonky if you don't include the layer transformation matrix to the mix. If you have this "top control" layer... what happens if you rotate the leg layer below it? You have to transfer that leg layer point motion from the layer rotation to the top control layer point motion... YIKES with a capital "Y". The layer rotation would require use of matrices. I've done this with my bone grouping/colorizing tools... wasn't fun and does not include point motion from other sources.
You multiply these issues times as many layers as you have and... it becomes problematic...
... or maybe it becomes a competing animation program called Apinime Studiopendous® I like that name. Has kind of an exotic "international" feel to it.

-vern
Hello all.
Okay, made a small Wink presentation which I hope will shed some light on what I have in mind for that "Tweak Tool"
Tweaktool.zip 806 kb
GC
Okay, made a small Wink presentation which I hope will shed some light on what I have in mind for that "Tweak Tool"
Tweaktool.zip 806 kb
GC
- synthsin75
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Okay.....but that doesn't really explain how you want this to work for switch layers, which I think is the part we're having trouble understanding. Your example uses vector layers that are 'always active'. And it doesn't require the magical 'tweaking' of tweens from one switch to a completely different switch.
That's the mysterious part. Although, I really don't see the benefit from the example either. But that could be because I use meshinstance a lot. So even though my characters are divided up for layer sorting, I have one master layer on which to do any point manipulation.
And I'd have to admit I'm not getting the 'non-destructive' bit either. Keyframes are keyframes. Copy, paste, and delete the unwanted bits. No loss of original.
Don't mean to be giving you such a hard time.

That's the mysterious part. Although, I really don't see the benefit from the example either. But that could be because I use meshinstance a lot. So even though my characters are divided up for layer sorting, I have one master layer on which to do any point manipulation.
And I'd have to admit I'm not getting the 'non-destructive' bit either. Keyframes are keyframes. Copy, paste, and delete the unwanted bits. No loss of original.
Don't mean to be giving you such a hard time.

Hello synth

Heheh.
Okay, lemme explain, again!
Let say you have a scene, you have background, 5 characters, particles and the such, all of which are composed of several layers, vector layers, switches, which are composed of vector layers, you got bone layers, which are also composed of vector layers, so on and so forth.
You end up with a large scene, with possibly tens if not hundreds of layers. What if you wanna adjust an expression, what if you wanna adjust an action oposed to another character.
You could go down on your hiarchy, tweak each and every piece separatlly, back and forth and get pretty much the look you want.
But what if, instead, you layout all your animation with layers, then, on top of all that you could tweak the whole character, with onion skin and all the tools available on sub layers but as if it was only one layer, would not that be easier, faster and a better workflow?
Does that make it clearer? If not I'll go even deeper, and deeper, ti'll we meet in China if needs be!
GC
Of course you do not!synthsin75 wrote:Don't mean to be giving you such a hard time.

Heheh.
Okay, lemme explain, again!

Let say you have a scene, you have background, 5 characters, particles and the such, all of which are composed of several layers, vector layers, switches, which are composed of vector layers, you got bone layers, which are also composed of vector layers, so on and so forth.
You end up with a large scene, with possibly tens if not hundreds of layers. What if you wanna adjust an expression, what if you wanna adjust an action oposed to another character.
You could go down on your hiarchy, tweak each and every piece separatlly, back and forth and get pretty much the look you want.
But what if, instead, you layout all your animation with layers, then, on top of all that you could tweak the whole character, with onion skin and all the tools available on sub layers but as if it was only one layer, would not that be easier, faster and a better workflow?
Does that make it clearer? If not I'll go even deeper, and deeper, ti'll we meet in China if needs be!

GC
- synthsin75
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Well I understand the basic idea, I think. And that would be helpful, but as a scripter, I'm just not getting any kind of handle on how it could possibly be implemented. Especially for dissimilar switch layers.
Say you have two vector layers in a switch which cannot be interpolated. So in the timeline, you have a switch keyframe to switch from one active vector layer to the other. There is no inherent tween here, just a sudden switch.
How would that be handled by your proposed tool? Would it just allow you to 'tweak' the active vector layer, so you could animate the points 'toward' the next switch shape?
Also as far as being non-destructive, would it have to do all of its tweaking on a new layer? If so, it would be this layer that is rendered, and you'd lose your layer ordering effects.
It just really sounds like what you're proposing would require a complete rethink of the software. Unless you can think of a way to work it more within the existing methodology of AS, I'm at a loss.
Say you have two vector layers in a switch which cannot be interpolated. So in the timeline, you have a switch keyframe to switch from one active vector layer to the other. There is no inherent tween here, just a sudden switch.
How would that be handled by your proposed tool? Would it just allow you to 'tweak' the active vector layer, so you could animate the points 'toward' the next switch shape?
Also as far as being non-destructive, would it have to do all of its tweaking on a new layer? If so, it would be this layer that is rendered, and you'd lose your layer ordering effects.
It just really sounds like what you're proposing would require a complete rethink of the software. Unless you can think of a way to work it more within the existing methodology of AS, I'm at a loss.

Hello again!
First of, I am new to AS Pro really, even though I had a look at it some years back.
The proposed tool is, well, just that, a proposition, a discussion about what is or is not possible, I havnt touched Lua yet, less created any scripts for it.
This is a suggestion from an animator point of vue, not from the scripting point, not yet at least!
I ordered a Lua book from amazon
Beginning Lua Programming
Hoping it would help me get started with it!
HHHHM this is my 100th post! Openning champain and caviar!
GC
First of, I am new to AS Pro really, even though I had a look at it some years back.
The proposed tool is, well, just that, a proposition, a discussion about what is or is not possible, I havnt touched Lua yet, less created any scripts for it.
This is a suggestion from an animator point of vue, not from the scripting point, not yet at least!
I ordered a Lua book from amazon
Beginning Lua Programming
Hoping it would help me get started with it!
HHHHM this is my 100th post! Openning champain and caviar!
GC
Last edited by GCharb on Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- synthsin75
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